Socrates likens pleasure to a leaky jar that can never be filled (maybe we call the opposite "fulfillment"?)
Callicles isn't persuaded. He says a filled jar is like a stone, no longer experiencing pain or pleasure—dead. "But living a life of pleasure involves taking in as much as you can."
Socrates compares the leaky jar to scratching a perpetual itch—clearly not what Callicles would consider a good life.
Now my question is, how do you think Ryan Bush's refusing to smash the HVAC (refusing to accept reality as it is) compares to the leaky jar (or perpetual itch) Socrates describes?
Now that is a very good question. I love the Gorgias and I love that back and forth between Callicles and Socrates and have thought about it a lot over the years. To map it over here Socrates' jars which are always full and never empty are not a destroyed HVAC. It is the stability of contentment and being.
My problem with Socrates' argument is that it's a disingenuous framing where the metaphor ends up obscuring the reality. I think Bush's is a better framing because we see the three options: good HVAC (eudaimonia), bad HVAC (depression), no HVAC (spiritual contentment). To stick with the idea of the itch we might say that all itches aren't equal. The itch of a mosquito bite or eczema is unpleasant but the itch of curiosity is something beautiful. Both are dopaminergic wantings but one of them I would happily dispose of and one I couldn't live without. What do you think?
Edit: I thought I'd talked about this recently and a search in my Obsidian shows that I discuss this (in light of Buddhist non-attachment) in an article that will be released in the next few months (though I'd forgotten the bit about the itch and it wasn't in the context of the HVAC so it was a delight to be reminded of it again)
I don't know about dopaminergic wantings, but I think you're onto something in making a distinction between the two kinds of itch, or desire. As I was commenting earlier I was thinking of Socrates as something of a Buddhist non-attachment sort of guy (given the walking around barefoot as well as the hippy dippy city of pigs he advocates for in the Republic), but I just went back to read a bit more of that passage in the Gorgias and he seems to be trying to get Callicles to acknowledge the difference between desire for the good vs. desire for pleasure itself. Which fits your point about Socrates' full jars not being a destroyed HVAC, but contentment and stability.
He later describes two guys who have jars filled with various difficult to procure things (wine, honey, milk and various other things), but one guy has leaky jars and has to toil day and night to procure these things, and is in great agony when he pauses for a moment. The other takes his fill and is content. The four items in the jars seem to parallel the four level structure repeated throughout the Republic, but in the context of the argument in the Gorgias, I can't seem to figure out what the difference is between many jars vs. one. It's one of those details that's easy to pass over, but it does stick out with its level of specificity about what, exactly, is in the jars. I get the sense that it speaks to the difference between being a stone dead destroyed HVAC and being moderately content, but I can't figure out what that would be. Anyway, maybe I'm taking things too far afield.
Nice to meet someone else who likes thinking about virtue and isn't afraid of the word. Looking forward to your article on non-attachment!
Interesting note of the single jars vs one. Also you're point about the jars being pleasure vs good is one I don't remember so now I must go back and hell I might as well go back and read the whole Gorgias it's been so long. I feel like I'm probably going to be mad at Socrates for strawman framing but we'll see!
Cool article. I’ve actually been doing a lot of thinking recently myself about the link between virtue and psychological wellbeing. Does the book you mention create a strong case for this link (beyond what’s been covered here)?
I think it does Frazer it's certainly a novel way of looking at things and synthesises a lot of cognitive science, neuroscience and philosophy into something compelling. There's a lot of other concepts like the sociometer that I didn't get around to talking about in the article but which Bush weaves together in the book quite nicely
The virtues are well worn, and an old freeway, repaved dozens of times. I like the HVAC, heat pump analogy, however. You don't need to use a golf club, attempt to fix it, or even call a repairman. Turn it off. The cold air, or hot, depending upon the condition, will stop. If it has a reset button, push it, and wait for a while. If not, wait awhile, and nearly 100% of the time, when you restore power, it will work as designed. Human's natural state is Happiness. Virtues mess with it, complicate it, and drive far too many mad. As long as any portion of the three stooges' ego team is running the show, you lose. How do you reset a human? Take a nap.
This was a very thought provoking read. It challenged me to think through some of my own beliefs that I will share here.
The analogy of the HVAC for the sense of self is indeed quite loaded. Many people do not realize that their sense of self is malfunctioning until they experience the improvement from giving it a rest through psychedelics or meditation. Like any problem, the first step in solving the issue is to see the problem clearly, and one cannot see the nature of the self and reality clearly until they step outside of it. Stepping outside, one realizes that it truly isn't cold at all, but that the HVAC was conspiring to make you think you were cold in order to ensure it's own continued existence. It whispers (or screams) lies incessantly in your ear, "It is so cold, you need me! Don't you dare pull that plug or you will die!". You pull the plug and you are fine. Every once in a while, especially when you have company over in order to make them comfortable, you might plug the HVAC back in but you keep it tuned to a reasonable setting.
Additionally, many people strive through their whole life to build up their sense of self through virtue self-signaling, and they may experience eudaimonia, but what did they truly accomplish? Is not virtue just another illusion of the mind? Does virtue exist beyond the confabulations of the individual? Here lies the issue with existentialism. You run as fast you can your entire life, but one day, too late, you realize that you have been on a treadmill, going nowhere the entire time. As "society is an outgrowth of humanity", expand this treadmill analogy, and you see the arc of human history as one enormously prolonged, beautifully and tragically destructive, comedically futile, race to nowhere.
So then, how does one find happiness? Rather than continue this perpetual cycle of chasing-imaginary-goals-until-realizing-they-are-imaginary-then-forgetting-they-are-imaginary-and-choosing-another-and-repeating, one must merely exist. Accept reality as it is. There is joy and peace in every moment, independent of external factors or internal illusions. Deep reflection, meditation, and psychedelics can all show this to be true momentarily, while meditation is the only method I know of which stabilizes the ability to experience this joy and peace. Compassion for other beings flows naturally out of this state, which, perhaps not coincidentally, might be the closest one can get to true virtue.
This whole discussion reminds me of the parable of the leaky jar in Plato's Gorgias:
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0178%3Atext%3DGorg.%3Apage%3D493
Socrates likens pleasure to a leaky jar that can never be filled (maybe we call the opposite "fulfillment"?)
Callicles isn't persuaded. He says a filled jar is like a stone, no longer experiencing pain or pleasure—dead. "But living a life of pleasure involves taking in as much as you can."
Socrates compares the leaky jar to scratching a perpetual itch—clearly not what Callicles would consider a good life.
Now my question is, how do you think Ryan Bush's refusing to smash the HVAC (refusing to accept reality as it is) compares to the leaky jar (or perpetual itch) Socrates describes?
Now that is a very good question. I love the Gorgias and I love that back and forth between Callicles and Socrates and have thought about it a lot over the years. To map it over here Socrates' jars which are always full and never empty are not a destroyed HVAC. It is the stability of contentment and being.
My problem with Socrates' argument is that it's a disingenuous framing where the metaphor ends up obscuring the reality. I think Bush's is a better framing because we see the three options: good HVAC (eudaimonia), bad HVAC (depression), no HVAC (spiritual contentment). To stick with the idea of the itch we might say that all itches aren't equal. The itch of a mosquito bite or eczema is unpleasant but the itch of curiosity is something beautiful. Both are dopaminergic wantings but one of them I would happily dispose of and one I couldn't live without. What do you think?
Edit: I thought I'd talked about this recently and a search in my Obsidian shows that I discuss this (in light of Buddhist non-attachment) in an article that will be released in the next few months (though I'd forgotten the bit about the itch and it wasn't in the context of the HVAC so it was a delight to be reminded of it again)
I don't know about dopaminergic wantings, but I think you're onto something in making a distinction between the two kinds of itch, or desire. As I was commenting earlier I was thinking of Socrates as something of a Buddhist non-attachment sort of guy (given the walking around barefoot as well as the hippy dippy city of pigs he advocates for in the Republic), but I just went back to read a bit more of that passage in the Gorgias and he seems to be trying to get Callicles to acknowledge the difference between desire for the good vs. desire for pleasure itself. Which fits your point about Socrates' full jars not being a destroyed HVAC, but contentment and stability.
He later describes two guys who have jars filled with various difficult to procure things (wine, honey, milk and various other things), but one guy has leaky jars and has to toil day and night to procure these things, and is in great agony when he pauses for a moment. The other takes his fill and is content. The four items in the jars seem to parallel the four level structure repeated throughout the Republic, but in the context of the argument in the Gorgias, I can't seem to figure out what the difference is between many jars vs. one. It's one of those details that's easy to pass over, but it does stick out with its level of specificity about what, exactly, is in the jars. I get the sense that it speaks to the difference between being a stone dead destroyed HVAC and being moderately content, but I can't figure out what that would be. Anyway, maybe I'm taking things too far afield.
Nice to meet someone else who likes thinking about virtue and isn't afraid of the word. Looking forward to your article on non-attachment!
Interesting note of the single jars vs one. Also you're point about the jars being pleasure vs good is one I don't remember so now I must go back and hell I might as well go back and read the whole Gorgias it's been so long. I feel like I'm probably going to be mad at Socrates for strawman framing but we'll see!
Every time I read a Platonic dialogue my previous conception of it is overthrown, that’s just the way it goes! Have fun!
Cool article. I’ve actually been doing a lot of thinking recently myself about the link between virtue and psychological wellbeing. Does the book you mention create a strong case for this link (beyond what’s been covered here)?
I think it does Frazer it's certainly a novel way of looking at things and synthesises a lot of cognitive science, neuroscience and philosophy into something compelling. There's a lot of other concepts like the sociometer that I didn't get around to talking about in the article but which Bush weaves together in the book quite nicely
ah very cool - i’ll add this to my to-read list then. Thanks!
The virtues are well worn, and an old freeway, repaved dozens of times. I like the HVAC, heat pump analogy, however. You don't need to use a golf club, attempt to fix it, or even call a repairman. Turn it off. The cold air, or hot, depending upon the condition, will stop. If it has a reset button, push it, and wait for a while. If not, wait awhile, and nearly 100% of the time, when you restore power, it will work as designed. Human's natural state is Happiness. Virtues mess with it, complicate it, and drive far too many mad. As long as any portion of the three stooges' ego team is running the show, you lose. How do you reset a human? Take a nap.
This was a very thought provoking read. It challenged me to think through some of my own beliefs that I will share here.
The analogy of the HVAC for the sense of self is indeed quite loaded. Many people do not realize that their sense of self is malfunctioning until they experience the improvement from giving it a rest through psychedelics or meditation. Like any problem, the first step in solving the issue is to see the problem clearly, and one cannot see the nature of the self and reality clearly until they step outside of it. Stepping outside, one realizes that it truly isn't cold at all, but that the HVAC was conspiring to make you think you were cold in order to ensure it's own continued existence. It whispers (or screams) lies incessantly in your ear, "It is so cold, you need me! Don't you dare pull that plug or you will die!". You pull the plug and you are fine. Every once in a while, especially when you have company over in order to make them comfortable, you might plug the HVAC back in but you keep it tuned to a reasonable setting.
Additionally, many people strive through their whole life to build up their sense of self through virtue self-signaling, and they may experience eudaimonia, but what did they truly accomplish? Is not virtue just another illusion of the mind? Does virtue exist beyond the confabulations of the individual? Here lies the issue with existentialism. You run as fast you can your entire life, but one day, too late, you realize that you have been on a treadmill, going nowhere the entire time. As "society is an outgrowth of humanity", expand this treadmill analogy, and you see the arc of human history as one enormously prolonged, beautifully and tragically destructive, comedically futile, race to nowhere.
So then, how does one find happiness? Rather than continue this perpetual cycle of chasing-imaginary-goals-until-realizing-they-are-imaginary-then-forgetting-they-are-imaginary-and-choosing-another-and-repeating, one must merely exist. Accept reality as it is. There is joy and peace in every moment, independent of external factors or internal illusions. Deep reflection, meditation, and psychedelics can all show this to be true momentarily, while meditation is the only method I know of which stabilizes the ability to experience this joy and peace. Compassion for other beings flows naturally out of this state, which, perhaps not coincidentally, might be the closest one can get to true virtue.