“The protection of interiority is the central motivation of Metamodernism.” So says Greg Dember, a Seattle-based musician, songwriter and independent researcher in Metamodernism. As the co-founder of the What Is Metamodern? website with Linda Ceriello, PhD, Greg’s writing and podcast appearances speaking on metamodernism have helped popularize the terminology outside of academic discourse through accessible writing. He is the author of Say Hello To Metamodernism!: Understanding Today’s Culture of Ironesty, Felt Experience, and Empathic Reflexivity (2024 Exact Rush). He is also a co-editor of the forthcoming multi-author volume, My Impossible Soul: The Metamodern Music of Sufjan Stevens (Bloomsbury/Lexington). He holds a BA (1987) from Yale University.
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Greg and Linda’s Metamodern site - https://www.whatismetamodern.com
Greg’s article on the 11 methods of Metamodernism - https://medium.com/what-is-metamodern/after-postmodernism-eleven-metamodern-methods-in-the-arts-767f7b646cae
Greg’s book on Metamodernism - https://www.amazon.com/Say-Hello-Metamodernism-Understanding-Reflexivity/dp/B0DHGFKZ8W/
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In this conversation, I sit down with Greg to explore metamodernism as the cultural backdrop that’s emerged since roughly 2000, taking over from postmodernism’s ironic detachment. We discuss how metamodernism oscillates between modern earnestness and postmodern irony to defend the significance of interiority and felt experience. Greg introduces his framework of 11 metamodern methods—including empathic reflexivity and the double frame—and we examine how artists like the Daniels (Everything Everywhere All At Once), Wes Anderson, Bo Burnham, and even The Beatles navigate this territory. The conversation ranges from David Letterman’s evolution to Don Quixote as a proto-metamodern text, exploring how this sensibility has spread from indie niches into mainstream culture, and what it means for how we make and experience art today.
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⏳Timestamps
0:00 Episode Intro
2:26 Greg’s current work: Sufjan Stevens book
3:26 What is metamodernism? Cultural backdrop since 2010
4:50 From modernism to postmodernism to metamodernism
7:36 David Letterman: from postmodern irony to Metamodern maturity
10:32 The oscillation between modern and postmodern attributes
12:26 Jimmy Fallon and the trend toward sincere enthusiasm
15:56 Felt experience vs. detached observation
19:26 Bo Burnham’s Metamodern masterpiece “Inside”
24:31 Rick Glassman and the Dance of Irony
25:26 The new sincerity and its relationship to metamodernism
28:26 Defending interiority as Metamodernism’s central motivation
31:38 From indie niches to mainstream: Billie Eilish and Taylor Swift
33:29 Everything Everywhere All At Once: metamodernism as hell
38:26 Wes Anderson and the metamodern sensibility
39:28 The 11 metamodern methods framework
40:31 Method #1: Empathic reflexivity
40:56 Method #2: Oscillation between modern/postmodern dualities
41:24 Method #3: The double frame (Raoul Eshelman)
44:26 Quirky as a metamodern aesthetic
46:26 Irony vs. cynicism: an important distinction
49:26 Don Quixote as proto-metamodern?
53:26 History rhymes: Shakespeare, Nietzsche, and cultural crossroads
57:26 Exploring quirky and other metamodern methods
59:39 Play, playfulness, and Wes Anderson
1:01:01 Method #4: Meta-cute
1:01:46 Moonrise Kingdom and Fantastic Mr. Fox as meta-cute
1:03:56 Protecting interiority: the motivation behind metamodern art
1:04:56 Metamodernism as reclaiming something eternally human
1:06:26 Sufjan Stevens and the Illinois album
1:07:16 Proto-metamodern vs. actually metamodern: the key distinction
1:08:26 The Metamodern “Rocky Racoon”
1:12:29 The Proto Metamodern Morrissey and The Smiths
1:14:43 Guest recommendation: Linda Ceriello
1:14:58 Where to find Greg’s work
