I think you should expand more on this idea. In current times many who consider themselves on the left never signed on to the violence being done in their name now nor most of the woke dogma. I think however it is something we have seen before.
Didn't the Beatles come out with Revolution in 1968? "But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out" Wasn't that them talking about the New Left.
Maybe it is an alignment thing like with celestial bodies. Temporary before they keep going on their own path.
"And if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao/Ain't gonna make with anyone anyhow". Good point James. I never connected that song to what happened in 1968 just general hippie leftist 60s (guess the Beatles were in a different compartment in the brain) but yeah I guess that's a direct reaction to it — a prototype of this faultline between the hippie left and the New Left. Fascinating stuff.
Temporary indeed. But maybe it's also a categorisation problem and the New Left have captured the cultural hegemonic crown of "the left" and are able to say anyone who doesn't meet the standards of purity set by their perspective isn't left. *thoughts brewing*
I adore the expanse and was left thirsty after the ending of the show and so read all the books earlier this year. God it's so damn good. you think belters are lefty hippies?
Not sure, but between the Liberal Elite (Earth) and Militant Right-wingers (Mars) - ironic that Elon wants to ‘Occupy Mars’, I find my ‘homeless’ self identifying most with life in the Astroid Belt these days.
I guess making my move from the other side of the aisle, I might simply label myself a hippie. I think it's only with a retrospective lens and the filter of today's political landscape that we're able to see the hippies of the '60s as left leaning.
Say, since The Waste Land probably sent you running for cover, how about getting into Karl Popper one of these days? In some ways I get Popper vibes from Klein. Actually, Klein interviewed a transfeminine senator just a little while back and I thought they both did fabulously. As for Shapiro, far be it from me to tell anybody how or what to think or feel, but I'm telling you, no bueno.
So, unlike the Wasteland which you rightly diagnosed as sending me running for cover! I delighted in Frog and Toad are Friends over the weekend and I am in love with it!! Such pure vibes and such wonderful craftsmanship. It is the most soothing thing I've watched in a very very long time and I just love it.
Popper would be a good one to follow up. I know him obviously for falsificationism but also recently he cropped up in my studies of economics as being at the first Mont Pelerin Society (basically all the Neoliberal economists getting together to talk shop starting in the Alps in the 1940s) meeting which I thought rather peculiar! Would be a nice one to know more about.
Must check out Klein's interview with that senator. As for Shapiro haha I know what you mean from past experience which is what made this conversation so peculiar to me
Hmm. Well, I see that George Soros was one of his students. It's tough to love somebody's articulated ideas or writing style but see where their efforts may have been used to rationalize destabilizing other countries to bend them to imperial will. Popper's "Paradox of Tolerance" is a fluid solution I keep in a small vial as an antidote to smaller scale, socially based instances of dumbassery so that, at least in my own sphere, things stand a chance of getting a bit less tense or fearful. It's not an idea I feel could ward away the New Apostolic Reformation or other juggernauts once they've really gained momentum and it gets less and less easy to appeal to people on a rational basis.
I think I read about Popper's paradox of tolerance before, and I've been thinking about it a lot recently and I've been referencing it a lot recently without knowing what it was. I've been thinking of it as the paradox of liberalism but forgetting where the idea had come from in the memory fog of the years. Thank you for mentioning that I'm gonna throw it into my read it later because this has been at the tip of my tongue for the last few months and it feels so important.
And also: great place to start reading a bit of Popper!
Since this exchange, Klein has really gotten himself into the bad books of "Lefties" at least in America. Book recommendation for you, which may seem totally beside the point but I promise you it's not: "American Evangelicals for Trump: Dominion, Spiritual Warfare and The End Times" by Prof. André Gagné. Though I'm a happy atheist now, I'd been all my life confused about what to make of the sect I was raised in, why it was so difficult to relate to "liberal society", why everything felt so forced and derealized. And I happen upon this book and just a few pages in I see it's been laid out, the sequence of schisms, mergers, revivals, schisms, mergers revivals, schisms, mergers, revivals -- including that which my family flocked to. It's accurate. The author makes a convincing case for "The Left" to stop ignoring these symptoms as though they are fringe or incoherent. The cost of elite institutions losing touch with the populace has been that the populace in its rage, confusion and exhaustion switches over to trance logic and chooses leadership which is squarely against our best interest. The book is very slim, easily finished in a day, zero pop bloat or hyperbole.
Please define hippie. It appears your hippies as noted are not of the same generation as mine, so I have a different take on this. How does generational evolution change the meaning, or does it? It seems to me it does. I’d love some discussion on that.
10 days later but finally replying! My concept of hippiedom is definitely influenced by Metamodernist Hanzi Freinacht here's his description (it's quite long but it's a very interesting way of exploring what you calld the generational evolution of meaning):
"The hippies are the people who produce new lifestyles, habits and practices that make life in postindustrial society happier, healthier and, perhaps, more enchanted. The hippies here are not quite the same as the hippies of old: the starry-eyed New Agers who looked to astrology, crystals, transpersonal psychologies and gurus, but rather people with highly developed skills in meditation, contemplation, bodily practices, psychedelics, diets and physical training, profound forms of intimate communication and sexuality and simple life wisdoms that apply to our day and age. You will find more rational and research based approaches to psychedelics, communities for self-development and eco-village living, science-driven meditation and stress release practices, coaches of all kinds, and elaborate forms of practices for achieving higher mental states and spiritual experiences. An important hub for all this is the Burning Man festival community of “burners” that are springing up around the world – originally held in the Nevada desert, but now with numerous offshoots. At this festival you will find a large host of MDMA-induced (a.k.a. ecstasy) art projects; large, impressive and “meaningless” structures that are built as temporary art projects for no other reason than that it is fun and interesting. So the hippies are becoming a force to reckon with because they provide social and personal technologies for maintaining health, happiness, community and a sense of enchantment to an increasingly strange and alienating world. Sometimes, this takes the form of vegan diets, sustainable lifestyles, organic farming for self-sufficiency, and relative withdrawals from modern life. But the activism always reinserts itself into the mainstream; it always comes back with a will to engage with others – not least via social media. The sort of hippies we are talking about here are generally highly educated and rely upon knowledge of medicine, physiology and psychology. This, too, can be seen as a form of cultural capital. Hippies without such cultural sensitivity fall behind and remain the old kind of hippies."
But that's more of an aside I guess because when I was thinking of Meadows I guess I was thinking of an intermediate sort of hippieism more like the 60s hippiedom: the protesting hippies seeking to change world consciousness and thinking outside the box. There's a disdain for capitalism and consumerism and a sort of neo-Romanticism seeing the highest values as being in harmony, nature and simplicity rather and reconnecting with a more magical world (often with the help of a few substances). With Meadows all the way back to the 60s there's the overlap with leftist values of ecological concern for the planet and fighting back against the excesses of evil government and capitalism. But the article was about the decoupling of these parts
Jung always fascinated and challenged me. Meadows was a good move; I'm glad you did that. JP always made me cringe and wretch. So what! I feel you. I never felt for labels. Once I understand what's behind the label, I usually move on. I shudder like J. Krishnamurti. The world is in unprecedented territory. We fortunate ones will continue producing and consuming content for the TESCREAL AI Lords (we need to train up those supercomputers; it's winner take all). Come what may, a well-examined life it will be.
I think the wokeism identity politics are a primary problem on the left. There are no science or economics literate people remaining either. Becoming anti social, anti factual, the woke corporations are quite ugly today. Right wing has not been challenged enough to understand the working class as people exit the left
I think you should expand more on this idea. In current times many who consider themselves on the left never signed on to the violence being done in their name now nor most of the woke dogma. I think however it is something we have seen before.
Didn't the Beatles come out with Revolution in 1968? "But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out" Wasn't that them talking about the New Left.
Maybe it is an alignment thing like with celestial bodies. Temporary before they keep going on their own path.
"And if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao/Ain't gonna make with anyone anyhow". Good point James. I never connected that song to what happened in 1968 just general hippie leftist 60s (guess the Beatles were in a different compartment in the brain) but yeah I guess that's a direct reaction to it — a prototype of this faultline between the hippie left and the New Left. Fascinating stuff.
Temporary indeed. But maybe it's also a categorisation problem and the New Left have captured the cultural hegemonic crown of "the left" and are able to say anyone who doesn't meet the standards of purity set by their perspective isn't left. *thoughts brewing*
You should definitely check out The Expanse. These ideas are brought to life in a Sci-Fi series.
Hahaha beltalowda, sasa ke?
I adore the expanse and was left thirsty after the ending of the show and so read all the books earlier this year. God it's so damn good. you think belters are lefty hippies?
Not sure, but between the Liberal Elite (Earth) and Militant Right-wingers (Mars) - ironic that Elon wants to ‘Occupy Mars’, I find my ‘homeless’ self identifying most with life in the Astroid Belt these days.
I guess making my move from the other side of the aisle, I might simply label myself a hippie. I think it's only with a retrospective lens and the filter of today's political landscape that we're able to see the hippies of the '60s as left leaning.
Ah that's actually a good way of putting it and yes that does put me more with the belters for sure (if a more Fred Johnson than hardcore OPA variety)
You might be a Belter; takes one to know one. 🤭
I feel this. If there's anything the world could use more of right now, it's peace and love.
I unabashedly prescribe the claymation rendering of "Frog and Toad are Friends".
Just flicked through it before saving for later and already feel like I'm tripping 🤣
As innocent as it looks, though! 🥹
Say, since The Waste Land probably sent you running for cover, how about getting into Karl Popper one of these days? In some ways I get Popper vibes from Klein. Actually, Klein interviewed a transfeminine senator just a little while back and I thought they both did fabulously. As for Shapiro, far be it from me to tell anybody how or what to think or feel, but I'm telling you, no bueno.
So, unlike the Wasteland which you rightly diagnosed as sending me running for cover! I delighted in Frog and Toad are Friends over the weekend and I am in love with it!! Such pure vibes and such wonderful craftsmanship. It is the most soothing thing I've watched in a very very long time and I just love it.
Popper would be a good one to follow up. I know him obviously for falsificationism but also recently he cropped up in my studies of economics as being at the first Mont Pelerin Society (basically all the Neoliberal economists getting together to talk shop starting in the Alps in the 1940s) meeting which I thought rather peculiar! Would be a nice one to know more about.
Must check out Klein's interview with that senator. As for Shapiro haha I know what you mean from past experience which is what made this conversation so peculiar to me
Hmm. Well, I see that George Soros was one of his students. It's tough to love somebody's articulated ideas or writing style but see where their efforts may have been used to rationalize destabilizing other countries to bend them to imperial will. Popper's "Paradox of Tolerance" is a fluid solution I keep in a small vial as an antidote to smaller scale, socially based instances of dumbassery so that, at least in my own sphere, things stand a chance of getting a bit less tense or fearful. It's not an idea I feel could ward away the New Apostolic Reformation or other juggernauts once they've really gained momentum and it gets less and less easy to appeal to people on a rational basis.
I think I read about Popper's paradox of tolerance before, and I've been thinking about it a lot recently and I've been referencing it a lot recently without knowing what it was. I've been thinking of it as the paradox of liberalism but forgetting where the idea had come from in the memory fog of the years. Thank you for mentioning that I'm gonna throw it into my read it later because this has been at the tip of my tongue for the last few months and it feels so important.
And also: great place to start reading a bit of Popper!
Since this exchange, Klein has really gotten himself into the bad books of "Lefties" at least in America. Book recommendation for you, which may seem totally beside the point but I promise you it's not: "American Evangelicals for Trump: Dominion, Spiritual Warfare and The End Times" by Prof. André Gagné. Though I'm a happy atheist now, I'd been all my life confused about what to make of the sect I was raised in, why it was so difficult to relate to "liberal society", why everything felt so forced and derealized. And I happen upon this book and just a few pages in I see it's been laid out, the sequence of schisms, mergers, revivals, schisms, mergers revivals, schisms, mergers, revivals -- including that which my family flocked to. It's accurate. The author makes a convincing case for "The Left" to stop ignoring these symptoms as though they are fringe or incoherent. The cost of elite institutions losing touch with the populace has been that the populace in its rage, confusion and exhaustion switches over to trance logic and chooses leadership which is squarely against our best interest. The book is very slim, easily finished in a day, zero pop bloat or hyperbole.
Please define hippie. It appears your hippies as noted are not of the same generation as mine, so I have a different take on this. How does generational evolution change the meaning, or does it? It seems to me it does. I’d love some discussion on that.
10 days later but finally replying! My concept of hippiedom is definitely influenced by Metamodernist Hanzi Freinacht here's his description (it's quite long but it's a very interesting way of exploring what you calld the generational evolution of meaning):
"The hippies are the people who produce new lifestyles, habits and practices that make life in postindustrial society happier, healthier and, perhaps, more enchanted. The hippies here are not quite the same as the hippies of old: the starry-eyed New Agers who looked to astrology, crystals, transpersonal psychologies and gurus, but rather people with highly developed skills in meditation, contemplation, bodily practices, psychedelics, diets and physical training, profound forms of intimate communication and sexuality and simple life wisdoms that apply to our day and age. You will find more rational and research based approaches to psychedelics, communities for self-development and eco-village living, science-driven meditation and stress release practices, coaches of all kinds, and elaborate forms of practices for achieving higher mental states and spiritual experiences. An important hub for all this is the Burning Man festival community of “burners” that are springing up around the world – originally held in the Nevada desert, but now with numerous offshoots. At this festival you will find a large host of MDMA-induced (a.k.a. ecstasy) art projects; large, impressive and “meaningless” structures that are built as temporary art projects for no other reason than that it is fun and interesting. So the hippies are becoming a force to reckon with because they provide social and personal technologies for maintaining health, happiness, community and a sense of enchantment to an increasingly strange and alienating world. Sometimes, this takes the form of vegan diets, sustainable lifestyles, organic farming for self-sufficiency, and relative withdrawals from modern life. But the activism always reinserts itself into the mainstream; it always comes back with a will to engage with others – not least via social media. The sort of hippies we are talking about here are generally highly educated and rely upon knowledge of medicine, physiology and psychology. This, too, can be seen as a form of cultural capital. Hippies without such cultural sensitivity fall behind and remain the old kind of hippies."
But that's more of an aside I guess because when I was thinking of Meadows I guess I was thinking of an intermediate sort of hippieism more like the 60s hippiedom: the protesting hippies seeking to change world consciousness and thinking outside the box. There's a disdain for capitalism and consumerism and a sort of neo-Romanticism seeing the highest values as being in harmony, nature and simplicity rather and reconnecting with a more magical world (often with the help of a few substances). With Meadows all the way back to the 60s there's the overlap with leftist values of ecological concern for the planet and fighting back against the excesses of evil government and capitalism. But the article was about the decoupling of these parts
Jung always fascinated and challenged me. Meadows was a good move; I'm glad you did that. JP always made me cringe and wretch. So what! I feel you. I never felt for labels. Once I understand what's behind the label, I usually move on. I shudder like J. Krishnamurti. The world is in unprecedented territory. We fortunate ones will continue producing and consuming content for the TESCREAL AI Lords (we need to train up those supercomputers; it's winner take all). Come what may, a well-examined life it will be.
I think the wokeism identity politics are a primary problem on the left. There are no science or economics literate people remaining either. Becoming anti social, anti factual, the woke corporations are quite ugly today. Right wing has not been challenged enough to understand the working class as people exit the left
Best stop thinking in isms
Your freedom is catapulted right into the fiefdom trap.